I know I’ve explained this before – but perhaps you haven’t read it before here. I don’t meditate the way I did when I first started to sit and watch the breath. I’m in a different place now. The mind just goes naturally clear without the ‘me’. If I watch the breath – I can watch it for 10-20 breaths in complete awareness, and it’s the same as it was on breath 1. There’s nothing different, there is no point of concentration… there is no jhana that starts from that like it used to in the past.

The absense of thought is already there. It’s always there when I’m quiet now. When I stop the radio, the doing, the few thoughts on the surface of the mind that exist throughout the day… there is a stillness. It’s as if I’m in the moment – without ego and without self – without thought at all.

So, now when I sit – there’s no point to focus on the breath – and forcing my’self’ to do it seems counterproductive because it forces there to be some ‘self’ that does the focusing. Without the intense focus on the breath – there is no self at all. Even when I force myself to focus the ‘self’ comes and goes in very brief fractions of a second. It’s like it’s not able to show up for more than a tiny portion of a second. If you look back at the journal entry for 9/3 – it was happening there too. It has happened on and off for a while, but now it appears to be changed for now anyway.

So it seems like the whole meditation has changed then – what is the point of creating self by focusing on breath?

No point I think – so I don’t bother anymore. I just sit and experience things… sounds mostly. It’s as if the mind is new and is hearing things for the first time – every time. I could hear a chicken squawk and then hear it again 4 seconds later – it isn’t recognized as the same chicken or even as a chicken at all. It’s experienced newly – each time. Same with dogs barking, cars, horns, bells, people talking, music, etc.

Sometimes there might be a pain in the foot or the back or somewhere as I sit. The pain just goes on… it isn’t seen as negative. Not as positive. It’s just a feeling. Eventually it drifts away altogether.

So as I sat… it seemed there was really no point to sitting except that it was a way to continue the thoughtless state – experiencing things as new. I just continued to sit – not thinking anything about it – just observing when the thought arose. Then it went away when I let it go…

After 30 minutes or so there was a change in the state… there began to be an expansion that was felt in the head – in the mind – the perception?  It began to get very loose there – and open, vast. It was like that for a little while. I just experienced it, no thoughts came about it – I just sat.

There was then a movement from what was - into something else. Impossible to describe… It was as if there was a change starting – and moving toward a different state. There was some tension about it – there was some resistance and some energy toward making the change though I did nothing myself to move toward it or away from it. I just experienced it.

Like so many experiences during meditation – it just seemed to move on it’s own. By itself. Sounds strange I know, but there is no ‘doing’ by me. By letting go of every experience, the experiences continue… on their own – on whatever schedule they’re on. In fact, if I tried to push it more – to move it – or help it along – the experience either disappears, stops, or goes into a pause where it doesn’t move anymore – just pauses. If I then let go of whatever I was ‘do’-ing it may continue, or it may just fade away. No telling what will happen really.

So it went on a bit and there was a point where it felt like something was moving inside that was at an angle to the perspective of mind I usually have. How could I explain…?

You know, your normal perception of self - of reality is straight ahead. The “you” is looking straight ahead straight out from your eyes – your face. Your perspective is straight out from your eyes and in this orientation. It’s always felt like that, it never changes. If your head turns to the left – your perspective also moves with it and moves straight out in a line directly in front of your face. I’ve never realized it before because I’ve never known anything different from this perspective except during meditation where I’ve lost all perspective and felt as if I was all that is… (see experience #4 video >

But, it was changing. It was as if the orientation inside was shifting and was at an angle at that point. It was twisting to the left…  if that makes any sense. The head was straight. The body was all, facing straight. Yet, something inside was twisting left and distorting the original perspective to be facing at an angle at times. It made the perspective – the one I, and I assume that everyone has – seem less real then. Is it false? Is our perspective only straight ahead because we attach so strongly to the idea that our eyes, our bodies are the “me”? Wherever we face – that must be where we are focused – where our orientation is…

This became distorted, and less solid. Less tangible than it was before. Less real. Less true.

So I continued to sit for a while as the process played around, distorting my perspective of things. After 10 minutes it quieted down and I came back into regular consciousness and stood up after another 5 minutes.

As usual there is no comprehension of what is going on – as it’s going on. There is no analyzation. There is no emotion about what is happening – it’s just experienced. Only afterward do I, to some degree say to myself – what in the world was that? That was odd. That was different from what I’ve experienced before. I get a bit excited about it then – knowing it was an experience I hadn’t had before. But, during the actual experience – if any emotion comes up – the state disappears or goes into pause – maybe to continue once the emotion is gone, or maybe it just fades away completely. Emotion, attachment to the states – whatever they are – leads to a pause in the state. It might lead to a fading away and loss of it entirely. When the state is actually going on – it’s best to let go of any fascination with it that might pop up.

For me now – there isn’t any fascination with any state that happens, as it happens. None really. This appears to be a ‘good thing’ as the process just comes and goes at will and isn’t affected by anything that I know of.

Does anyone understand this? Has anyone experienced something like this?

9-27-07 Today I climbed the steps at the mountain at Wat Tham Suea again. A Thai boy of 8 years old kept up with me as we sort of raced to the top from steps 300 to 1200. At maybe 30 steps away from the top he was exhausted and had to stop to rest. I stopped a little ahead of him and waited for him to catch up so he could be the “winner”. I stayed at the top for a couple hours, at times sitting… and other times standing and walking around… I decided to climb into the rocks that the monk showed me the other day. (Video link at bottom of page). There were a few too many people at the top of the mountain and I thought I’d try that quiet spot in the rocks.

As I climbed over through the jagged limestone rocks someone called out in Thai, “Tum Mai Dai kup”. I called back, “mai chai, die kup”. (You cannot do that) and I responded, “Not true, I can do this”… To which he didn’t respond. I’m sure he was concerned about my safety as the rock peaks are treacherously sharp.

I reached the place and folded my long-sleeved shirt underneath me. I took off my shirt because I wasn’t visible from the Chedi observation area and it was quite warm in the sun.

I sat about an hour and the mind was very calm. The body, while still “there” felt very relaxed and comfortable. As I sat I realized that some questions were on my mind.

WHY MEDITATE to reach nirvana? What good is it? Is there a point? Is it a good thing?

I decided to study that question in the state I was in… attention and concentration came quickly and I reasoned out an answer within maybe 30 minutes.

There really is no point to any of it. Yeah, surprisingly that’s the conclusion that I came to. There’s much too much to write about it – but, I’ll create a video or at least some audio to explain how I came to that conclusion.

Here are the 3 files that explain all of it… The first is my history of meditation – what happened in the past and what exactly I did. What the jhanas were about, and why I stopped meditating for about 9 years.

Meditation history – (7.1Mb) MP3 audio format – not edited, but maybe should have been a little bit…

This next file is a video I took in mid-September where I was unsure what I’m doing by restarting meditation. I am not sure WHY meditation or reaching nirvana is a good goal. What is the reality of it? I couldn’t reason it out that well here, but I had a lot of questions about “WHY”.

WHY? Video (24Mb)

The file above explains what the thought process was at the top of the mountain as I asked myself “WHY” in the relaxed, concentrated state of mind… and the answers that I reached…

The last file, another MP3 audio file looks at why I believe there’s no point in reaching enlightenment, and what I’ve learned by having jhana come… how the mind and ego have changed…

Enlightenment, no point… Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4 Part 5

I don’t believe thatmeditating at this point is a good thing for me. For others, it may be… If you meditate and you reach a point where you are relaxing the mind and you are not going into jhana much or at all you may find meditation very relaxing and a positive thing to do and keep up with.

I found it to be a life changing experience. The changes that came over me 9 years ago were devastating to my marriage at the time… they destroyed the ego for a time… They gave me a glimpse into nirvana and what happens when the mind stops thinking and reacting emotionally. I understood what it means to lose the ego… to find equanimity… peace… bliss…

For me, the changes that took place, and that I believe will take place again if I continue to meditate are too radical for me to take lightly. I had to really ask myself – what is the point of this…? I had to ask myself, if you really reach nirvana – WHAT THEN? Nirvana seems a very real possibility in my mind right now, considering all I’ve experienced recently… The process seems to have picked up where it left off.

Nirvana has been said to be a permanent change in the mind… a letting go to the point that there is no longer suffering because the mind doesn’t attach to anything…

That’s why I needed to question – what good is that state?

My answers are in this recording… enjoy… if you have any questions, send to:

aimforawesome@gmail.com and I’ll do my best to answer…

Vern

Video link (2nd time posted):
Secret meditation spot up Wat Tum Sua mountain – A monk shows me how to get there…
14.7Mb in size >

Mai pen rai krup… (no matter, no mind)

Today was an interesting test of my meditation practice. I climbed up the stairs again to the top of the mountain at Wat Tum Sua and after the sweat dried up from my body and clothes and my breathing calmed quite a bit I sat in my usual spot at the altar that has some shade and the most wind blowing (usually).  The first 10 minutes were almost silent as people came and went and were quiet for the most part. I could hear talking, but it didn’t bother me at all. I was able to find peace and stillness of body rather quickly and the mind followed… and then…

5 or so Thai kids arrived with their father. I could hear them around me and they were talking about getting me to move… I was in a good state of concentration at the moment and so I just watched with my mind – with attention at what they said and let it go as I heard each word or phrase. They were intent on getting me to react and break the meditation. They took pictures very close to me (of me) and banged on the bells that were at another platform close by to see if they could get me to react or jump or something. It was amusing and yet I couldn’t help some thoughts from surfacing about the impoliteness of Thais when it comes to others.  There really is very little.

Going to this wat in the south of Thailand over the past couple weeks and months I noticed that there is little in the way of outward shows of respect not only among all Thais’ but also for the monks at this wat. It is as if they are laypeople. The Thais that interact with them don’t worry about having their head higher than the monks, following a step behind… using polite language with krup and ka… they don’t dip their heads when they pass them or go between monks. They don’t wai anyone and very rarely do I see any Thais’ interacting with the monks at all except to treat them as friends like they met in a bar.

This is in marked contrast with the respect shown to monks by Thais in the Northeast province of Ubon Ratchathani, Udonthani, Sisaket and others.  There is a reverence… a respect that they don’t give to others that they accord to monks that is nice to see…

At least a little basic respect of someone’s space, privacy, meditative moments would have been appreciated…  but, no matter since the mind reacted very little to the antics of these kids that were at times within reaching distance sticking their Nokia cell phone cameras close to me to get a good photo of the foreign monk (they called me) meditating at the top of the mountain.  The father of some of the kids joked with them, smoked and egged them on to do some of the things they were doing to attempt to disturb me… it was kind of weird that not only was there an utter disregard for my sitting there in an unobtrusive and out of the way part of the altar, but there were unabashed attempts at provoking me to see if they could get me to stop meditating. This went on for over 30 minutes I’m guessing.

So, such was my sitting today…  after they had gone and I stayed another 15 minutes.

When I opened my eyes I had a bit of Jhana there – the feeling of lightness of being… of no feeling in the hands, arms and legs… the good feeling inside… bliss or some good feeling…

I noticed a young monk climbing the rocks below coming back toward the platform. Apparently he had been somewhere. I asked where (“Bpy Ny?”). He said, “anapanasati, tee non” (meditating over there) and pointed toward the rocks. I said, “Jing law?” (really) He said “chai” (yes…)  I said, “Ow bpy dooay. Die mai kup?” ( I want to go too, can i?).

I went and got my sport sandals and came back, he led me over the treacherous rocks in his bare feet and showed me this ‘secret’ meditation spot that he found a while back. He had been at the wat for a year and also liked to practice anapanasati. This was the spot he liked to go.  It was a small spot of mildly sloping rock that was in an incredibly beautiful, secluded setting, nestled among the jagged limestone cliffs that comprised the top of the mountain. It was some effort getting across the rocks even with shoes, but I made it in a bit over 5 minutes I think.  I took a little video of the experience and it’s posted below. Enjoy…

Oh, tomorrow if we both make it, we’re supposed to meet at 2pm for a trip up a mountain next to the one we were at today. Supposedly it’s a good place for meditation and there are no other visitors there, just monks.  I’m excited to see if we might be able to coordinate that trip tomorrow at 2pm. If so, I’ll post video and photos.

Ok – video of top of wat tum sua secret meditation spot 14.7Mb in size >

I have this idea that the mind noticed that it was slipping away… the ego was dissolving. Disenchantment with things was starting to take place again (1st time: 1999).

The mind revolted – it didn’t want to go away again. Meditation sessions were filled with a noisy and chatty mind – untamable most times – or only for minutes at a time. I could not just stop the thoughts like I used to – and have a mind that was without thought and reactions…  Very strange. Anyway, see the video if you want, there’s more to it than that.

Reaction, ego, emotionality video 9-7-07 >

I looked out at the mountains and he came over to me and offered me a soy milk box which I took with thanks. I spoke to him in Thai and he was extremely shy to speak, but wanted to speak it seemed. He was from Suratthani area and had been at the Wat Thamsuea for about a year. He was 21 years old.

Anyway, so I went to sit and meditate and found a place on the ground. I sat for maybe an hour and had varying degrees of concentration and mindlessness (vernlessness) as there was no vern to watch the breath. I had to focus on the breath to bring a vern back into the picture.  Odd to read this, I know, but, that is the experience. There is nothing there to watch the breath… no “me” so to speak. If I wasn’t trying to force something to be there to watch the breath – there is just nothingness. I am aware of things around… the air, the sounds, etc. If I open my eyes – I can see without a problem… and yet, still – there is no center point for where “i” am. It’s like no “me”.

Anyway, the video might explain better… I filmed as I walked down the steps, showing me at first – then showing the steps.

Walking down steps at Wat Thamsuea video > (.wmv about 4MB)

Update 6-15-09:

Still much the same. If I sit to meditate the mind is quiet already. There’s no sense following the breath because the mind is still. The body relaxes easily… now what is the point of meditation when I have this level of peace from the start?

I’d rather not ask Buddhists or consult books as I like to see how things play out on their own… probably the jhanas wouldn’t have come at all if I’d gone looking. Better just to see what happens…

I’ve had 2 dimensional experiences before but this one was different in it’s scale.

3 dimensions change to 2 dimensions video

Update: I forgot to continue the experience after I put the video link above. I have attention deficit disorder and sometimes that happens. Ok, here is the rest of what happened…

I focused on a point on the side of a mountain – a  limestone karst here in Krabi, Thailand that was just a random spot on the mountain where my eyes naturally went directly in front of me and lower than I was vertically. There was no thought in the mind. The scene in front of me began to change. There was some strangeness going on with the visual aspect of the mountain. Incredibly, though at the time my mind was not moved by it – just watched, the entire scene in front me – my whole field of vision turned from 3 dimensions to 2 dimensions. It started with the mountain which quickly turned into a 2-D image. I looked around at everything within my field of view – it was all the same, just 2-dimensions. I continued to look at the scene. It was if my field of view was now a painting. Nothing was moving – the trees were too far away to see move if they were. There was nothing in front of me because I was standing on a Buddhist altar type structure at the far north side. There was nothing but some sharp rocks below me, beyond that a huge valley, and the mountain in front of me.

So as I watched the scene the mountain began to get lines running through it. I realized the mountain was turning into a jigsaw puzzle. It made pieces of a puzzle that could all be fit together and form the scene. I continued to watch.

The pieces of the puzzle started shaking – I could see white behind the pieces as they shook hard like they were going to fall down into a big heap. What was beyond the 2-D scene – ? What was the white area? It was strange and I cut the scene off before it could go further. It’s funny to say it, but on this day I had kind of had enough of these experiences. I’d already decided that enlightenment wasn’t a worthwhile goal. It wasn’t something to be sought after. If it was going to happen right now at this moment, I didn’t care. But I didn’t let it happen either. So, I guess I cared enough to stop it?

I stopped it by turning around and the scene though at first two dimensional turned back to 3-D and I was without thought for a time.

That was about it… I walked back down the steps in silence, went to eat my usual fried rice at my usual restaurant, and went about the rest of my night…

This state lasted all the way up until I went to sleep about 9:30 pm. That was about 6 hours. I’m not sure that even when I meditated in 1998 and had a similar state that it lasted this strongly and long. Very interesting state… no thought… no emotion… no desire… no satisfaction or attachment to anything – so no dissatisfaction…  Yet, I was able to have conversation at dinner with my friend. Memory still worked and was used in place of reaction and emotions. I remembered how I reacted emotionally to certain things – but there was no emotional reaction at all. Much more in the video.

comments on the state video

Filmed at top of Wat Tum Sua mountain top temple before the thoughtless state occurred (next entry).  Wat tum sua scenery and some comments on meditation This is a small sized video display because it’s 12 minutes long and if it was a bigger size it would be a 47 MB download which most people wouldn’t bother with because too large. I think. If you want a larger one where you can SEE the scenery, ask me and I’ll whip it up. I saved the project it would just take another 15 minutes to convert it and get it together. It would take me about 4 hours to upload it with a good internet connection so it won’t be a quick process – but could do it at some point.

Climbed up to Wat Tum Sua and attempted to sit. It didn’t go well the first time so I just shot some video and photos for a while. There was a storm and from that vantage it was interesting to see different spots around the area getting rained on, others dry and sunny. There was no lightening – so my fears of a repeat of the lightening experience up there were few (see www.aimforawesome.com for my lightening experience article).  I went down a level and sat in a dry spot on a piece of concrete about 12 inches high at the base of a pillar. It was comfortable. The body was very relaxed and at peace. Soon the mind followed.

I then had a very strong experience of the state that lasted about an hour there. Instead of attach to it and sit there for hours after about an hour I opened my eyes and stood up and felt the state in that new posture… the state stayed for many hours – I was conscious of every one of the 1,237 steps down the mountain and during the motorbike ride home… more about it on the video.

- the thoughtless state video

Update: 6-15-09

It was probably this event that triggered something. After this happened I wasn’t quite the same. I was still having thoughts – though they were less frequent. The mind seemed to find peace – equanimity and non-dualistic experience easily and without effort. There were many periods over the next 1 year when I noticed that the mind was quiet and without thought.

Now – june 15,09 I’ve been in a weird thoughtless state for a number of months.

I started this because I noticed that sometimes recently when I was in a loud environment it wasn’t affecting my concentration or mind – thoughts – at all. The mind was able to calm and quiet very quickly and wasn’t affected if noises started…

last couple days video